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devinganger
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Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:17 am Post

vic-k wrote:
devinganger wrote:But right now, NiaD feels (to this outsider) too much like a club with outsiders not welcome.
[i][color=#0000BF]I do take issue with you, and vehemently so!
a)I'm not aware of anyone coming aboard Scriv, or seeking to join in Niad, being treated as an outsider.
b) since when, or why, do *you* feel like an outsider?


I knew I should have taken more time in writing that.

The Scrivener forums are very welcoming -- there's a reason I keep coming back. :)

I have seen nothing in NiaD that would give the perception that anyone there is actively trying to ward off newcomers.

My issues are more internal to me -- I mentioned in a previous reply that my background of collaboration in writing comes from a technical career. Often on my project teams, I am the one tasked with going over everyone's contributions to ensure uniformity of voice and continuity -- in part because I have the focus and attention to detail to do it well and a strong dislike of disunity.

At one point when I was working as a freelancer in the RPG gaming industry, I was introduced to the concept of "Hurtful Wrong Fun" -- which goes beyond "you all are doing something I don't find fun" straight to "and you're hurting me because your type of fun is wrong."

People who express Hurtful Wrong Fun are usually self-centered jerks. I have spent a good portion of my life conditioning myself away from my kneejerk tendencies to be a self-centered jerk. To me, the current setup of NiaD is too far into my discomfort zone for it to be worth me spending the energy to fight my tendencies -- what y'all find a fun feature, I find a bug. But NiaD *isn't for me* so my opinion really doesn't matter. If I were to attempt to participate, I would be the guy bringing Hurtful Wrong Fun to the party and NOBODY likes that guy. That's why I feel like an outsider for NiaD in particular (and occasionally in some of irreverent, illogical, zany badinage y'all tend to drag every long-running thread down into) and my solution is to withdraw and shut up.

But that's a reflection on how *I* am, not an indictment of NiaD or the forums or how anyone else is. Part of wisdom is knowing how you're broken and how far you can adapt, when to try, and when to sit back and let other people do their thing. :)
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Plotter on the streets, pantser in the sheets

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vic-k
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Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:09 pm Post

Dev wrote:
My expectations for collaboration are built on a foundation of undiagnosed-until-adult-Aspergers combined with years in the technical industry where continuity of voice and content is key.
Quite simply, I don't play well with others, and I have no wish to inflict myself upon a group of people having fun.

as I ‘ve mentioned, on more than one occasion on Scriv’s fora, a sizeable portion of Scriv’s crew are coping with debilitating physical and/or psychological conditions, of varying degrees of severity.
My own contribution is: ME/CFS, (mildly affected), with all of its bizarre symptoms.
http://www.meassociation.org.uk/about/what-is-mecfs/
which precludes me from participating in a whole raft of activities, i.e., of late: physical labour endeavour; social interaction (in excess of five or more other folk, usually. After an hour or so, I’m edging t’ward the door! no matter how congenial and amiable that company is!). However, unfortunately for some, my weird, warped sensed of humour remains in tact.

Because I feel it’s imperative (for me), that I address the points you’ve raised in you posts, it’s taken me more than two hours to write the preceding 140 words. That’s the nature of Me, in my case, when it comes to writing. It’s as if the mental links between eyes, brain and finger tips, are short circuiting. I end up staring at the screen. It’s the mental equivalent of looking at a door that desperately needs painting, and thinking, “Sod it! I’ll do it tomorrow!” again and again and again! The greater the sense of imperative, the greater the difficulty in responding. That’s why I never try to enrol for Niad .... I’d turn into a zombie!

However, Dev, If you were successful in enrolling on Niad, I'm sure your only required interaction would be with Rog (pigfender). All you’d need to do, is what you claim you’re good at, paying attention to the instructions and details in the package Rog would furnish you with, for you to complete your chapter.

Nobody knows you better than yourself, but I'm struggling with your description of yourself and your sense of humour. And, anyway, there's no law etched in stone that says we need play to our self-perceived stereotypes.

Take care, Dev
Vic
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devinganger
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Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:21 am Post

vic-k wrote:However, Dev, If you were successful in enrolling on Niad, I'm sure your only required interaction would be with Rog (pigfender). All you’d need to do, is what you claim you’re good at, paying attention to the instructions and details in the package Rog would furnish you with, for you to complete your chapter.

Nobody knows you better than yourself, but I'm struggling with your description of yourself and your sense of humour. And, anyway, there's no law etched in stone that says we need play to our self-perceived stereotypes.


I would rather leave the slot open for those who are going to fling themselves into the endeavor with joyful abandon. :) NiaD deserves that.
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vic-k
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Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:27 am Post

devinganger wrote:
vic-k wrote:However, Dev, If you were successful in enrolling on Niad, I'm sure your only required interaction would be with Rog (pigfender). All you’d need to do, is what you claim you’re good at, paying attention to the instructions and details in the package Rog would furnish you with, for you to complete your chapter.

Nobody knows you better than yourself, but I'm struggling with your description of yourself and your sense of humour. And, anyway, there's no law etched in stone that says we need play to our self-perceived stereotypes.


I would rather leave the slot open for those who are going to fling themselves into the endeavor with joyful abandon. :) NiaD deserves that.[/quote
fling themselves into the endeavor with joyful abandon.

:shock: I'm not too sure I can combine the concepts of Jaysen, and flinging about with joyful abandon!! :shock: Could get very XXX Rated. Sort of '80 Shades of The Life and Times of The Marquis de Sade

Take care, old buddy
Vic
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pigfender
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Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:16 pm Post

Hey Devin, thanks for the insights into how NiaD can come across to potential new participants. It's an interesting issue: We're clearly trying to create a club-like atmosphere, with our forum badges, repeat events, published lists of names, etc. It's difficult to put your arms around any group and say "we're together on this thing" without creating a line -- no matter how fragile or easy to cross -- that newcomers have to make a psychological step over.

That's compounded by the fact that I do actually make new participants submit a sample of their work before hand. These books are a matter of pride for a lot of people (myself included!) and it's important that anyone taking part takes it seriously. So they do have to be comfortable being told what to write. They do have to be comfortable with a deadline. They do have to be comfortable with the general public reading their stuff... and they have to reach a standard of writing where I think they're ready for that level of exposure.

So, I definitely appreciate your suggestions for ways to let people look over that line (which I will try to draw as faintly as I can) and get a sense of whether it'd be fun on the other side, or just a bit too claustanthropic!

I'll look into Twitch and other possibilities for live streaming. I'm very conscious that my screen itself might not be the most exciting thing to look at (plus I want to keep things like the title, the cover and the order of chapters secret until the big reveal), but I like the idea of more active chatting -- especially if there's a way to continue to have it be centred on this wonderful community of friends who love writing and reading.

I totally get why you might not be comfortable taking part. I'm not exactly a fan of collaborative working myself*, particularly not the committee style development that is so commonly mistaken for teamwork these days. If you do change your mind and fancy a go in the future, then rest assured, Devin, I've read some of your writing before (including your interesting opening on the Scrivening forum) and you can consider yourself pre-approved!

* - I know. Ironic, huh?
"Some dice only have sixes." nom, 19 Oct 2013
"Piggy, I'm beginning to wonder if you are the best person to take advice from." Jaysen, 26 Sept 2014

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pigfender
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Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:19 pm Post

Jaysen wrote:I think "team writing" could be a thing. kind of like the old "three word" threads, but more structured. Maybe something like 150word blocks. I bet you'd get a few folks on that that would not do NiaD with a 3k commitment.

I'm still not a fan of this one, so prove to me that it could be good: take an old chapter brief and show me what a bunch of you could pull together. EDITED TO UPDATE: Don't do that. Prove it here, instead.

Jaysen wrote:It might be nice to consider a smaller format NiaD... a M-Niad ... the Mini Novel in a Day. Each segment is 1K, limit it to 15 chapters.

Interesting...!
"Some dice only have sixes." nom, 19 Oct 2013
"Piggy, I'm beginning to wonder if you are the best person to take advice from." Jaysen, 26 Sept 2014

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devinganger
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Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:30 pm Post

I've been watching a lot of Food Network recently, so pardon the inspiration.

Combining some of pigfender's feedback to me about pre-screening new writers and Jaysen's team writing...

why not try a bunch of short feeder tournaments (150-word stories, etc.) whose "winner" then gets a chapter in the NiAD? Something like one of the Chopped Tournaments of Champions...

Maybe do this first as separate from the main NiAD, and this would be amenable to streaming...and would give interested folks a way to get their foot in the door...
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Plotter on the streets, pantser in the sheets

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pigfender
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Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:59 am Post

It's really not that difficult to get in. Places aren't that rare! You have to have enough confidence to stick your hand up. You have to have enough confidence to send me a short sample of your work. You have to have sufficient grasp of what makes something readable. If you need support to get over those steps, than NiaD isn't for you yet as your work *will* get read by hundreds of people (according to the stats from previous years' books), and bailing out on the day causes problems when I need them the least!

Also, I really don't like Jaysen's idea. :D
Here's the relevant blurb from previous threads...
For the avoidance of doubt, a formal collaborative chapter will be subject to the same quality approvals as any other hopeful new participant: I'll want a sample of writing from the complete collective to make sure you're up to it. A key measure will be that your chapter must be indistinguishable from one written by a single person! No "three word story" chapters will be included!

In other words, the following are likely to pass the test:
- a single main writer who brainstorms ideas from his friends but still actually does all the writing,
- a single main writer who gets editorial input from 1 other person, or
- an established two-person writing partnership

Unlikely to be accepted as a 'formal' chapter that makes the book:
- crowdsourced chapters, or
- chapters written by more than a couple of contributors that are simple dividing the chapter into smaller sections.

That's for several reasons:
1) the preserve the integrity of the books (which people are rightly very proud of)
2) to make sure everyone has a fair and sensible amount to write that can show off their own writing style and vision for their section (any disaggregation is likely to imply an initial single interpretation and vision for the chapter, and prevent individuals from getting the full NiaD experience).
3) a chapter is only 1,500 words and you have a whole day. That really should be manageable!
"Some dice only have sixes." nom, 19 Oct 2013
"Piggy, I'm beginning to wonder if you are the best person to take advice from." Jaysen, 26 Sept 2014

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nom
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Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:35 am Post

devinganger wrote:Quite simply, I don't play well with others, and I have no wish to inflict myself upon a group of people having fun. :)


One of the joys—and terrors—of NiAD is that we all *do* play alone. There might be a bit of banter on the day but, speaking for myself at least, that's just an outlet for the anxiety of writing something good enough in the time available. As a form of procrastination, it's also a lot more fun than banging your head into the desk or staring at the walls wondering why you can't remember the word for the thing that you use to do the thing with the thing. When it comes to the writing itself though, that's a lonesome task (as writing almost always is). No-one else sees what I write, or knows what I think, until the package published.

devinganger wrote:Part of wisdom is knowing how you're broken and how far you can adapt, when to try, and when to sit back and let other people do their thing. :)

Great advice. Can I quote you*?

*I obviously just did, but I meant apart from here of course.
Complete and utter NOMsense.
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Jaysen
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Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:03 pm Post

pigfender wrote:
Jaysen wrote:I think "team writing" could be a thing. kind of like the old "three word" threads, but more structured. Maybe something like 150word blocks. I bet you'd get a few folks on that that would not do NiaD with a 3k commitment.

I'm still not a fan of this one, so prove to me that it could be good: take an old chapter brief and show me what a bunch of you could pull together. EDITED TO UPDATE: Don't do that. Prove it here, instead.

Jaysen wrote:It might be nice to consider a smaller format NiaD... a M-Niad ... the Mini Novel in a Day. Each segment is 1K, limit it to 15 chapters.

Interesting...!

Wait.. What? Seriously? Wow.

You would do this the week I'm so hopped up on narcotics that can cant figure out why one foot has no sock on it and the other is confined in two socks. let me read that other thread and see what trouble I've made for myself. Hopefully it's no more trouble than normal. Granted i've been told that "normal" is really a relative experience, and after a week with my relatives I'm just not sure how it all works any more.

I think I'm ready for another pill...
Jaysen

I have a wife and 2 kids that I can only attribute to a wiggle, a giggle, and the realization that she was out of my league so I might as well be happy with her as a friend. 24 years marriage later, I can't imagine life without her. -Me 10/7/09

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Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:23 pm Post

Haha!
"Some dice only have sixes." nom, 19 Oct 2013
"Piggy, I'm beginning to wonder if you are the best person to take advice from." Jaysen, 26 Sept 2014

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Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:10 am Post

I should point out that I was laughing at the funny sock joke, not the fact that you're under the weather. Feel better soon.

I am of course assuming that illness is indeed the rationale for your narcotic interlude, and this isn't a cry for some sort of interventionist response from your interchums.
"Some dice only have sixes." nom, 19 Oct 2013
"Piggy, I'm beginning to wonder if you are the best person to take advice from." Jaysen, 26 Sept 2014

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vic-k
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Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:59 pm Post

pigfender wrote:I am of course assuming that illness is indeed the rationale for your narcotic interlude,
's got nowt t' do with illness! It's a byproduct of a faulty keyboard, and numpty's devotional reliance upon 'predictive text'.
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Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:13 pm Post

vic-k wrote:
pigfender wrote:I am of course assuming that illness is indeed the rationale for your narcotic interlude,
's got nowt t' do with illness! It's a byproduct of a faulty keyboard, and numpty's devotional reliance upon 'predictive text'.

I wish that either of the suggested nefarious options were the true cause of my narcotic fueled ranting and raving at the dust balls I am chasing in circles while trying to clean the ceiling fan. I'm still not sure why there's a ceiling fan on the floor, but she said it needed cleaned and I shall clean it no matter how hard it is to reach from the top of this ladder to those moving things on the floor.

Allow me to suggest, age and I do NOT get along well. At all. And age is intent on escalating the conflict while I, the loser in all engagements, refuse to give ground and cede to age any suggestion of possible defeat. The problem is, in all honesty, that SOB is winning! I'm not sure age can be held at bay and I may need to admit "you've won you damnable bastard!".

That or I just need another pill...
Jaysen

I have a wife and 2 kids that I can only attribute to a wiggle, a giggle, and the realization that she was out of my league so I might as well be happy with her as a friend. 24 years marriage later, I can't imagine life without her. -Me 10/7/09

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vic-k
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Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:29 pm Post

Jaysen wrote: I'm still not sure why there's a ceiling fan on the floor, but she said it needed cleaned and I shall clean it no matter how hard it is to reach from the top of this ladder to those moving things on the floor.
'snot just about you, y' know! :shock:
Imagewot kindda pills are they, anyway? :?
As a professional, you, are your one and only asset. Without integrity you are worthless, but with it, you are priceless.